Who does the best "no limits" detail?

911, I apologize if I have offended you. That was not my intention. I offered my counsel, which I believe to be sound, in all good will and did not intend to insult or offend anyone. My desire is that each of you will succeed and prosper in your chosen professions.

Respectfully,
Al

 

Like I said in my post, I believe you are right in your observations , I just think it would have been received far better if it was posted under a different forum like OFF TOPIC or DETAILING SCHOOL instead of showing up where it did. Maybe refrain from saying things like some peoples poor grammatical skills "drives you up the wall" as well. And don't worry about offending me. I'm old enough that I gave up caring about what people thought of me a loooooooong time ago. :thumb:

 

I agree that the "up the wall" remark should have been omitted. I did not intend it in an insulting manner, but I can see how it can be easily taken in such a way. It's not the presence of typos and grammatical errors in forum comments that "drive me up the wall"--they are an unavoidable part of internet dialogue. We hastily write what we want to say and we even more quickly hit the "submit" button. Rather, what "perturbs" me is their presence in professional detailing presentations. It perturbs me (and "perturb" is not the correct word but I can't think of another that expresses my meaning) because they are so easily avoidable. All it takes is a second pair of eyes. I understand how much work goes into pulling together and composing a detailing write-up. It is precisely because so much work is invested that I want professionals to ask a friend or colleague to take an editorial glance at the draft before they publish it. They have nothing to lose and everything to gain. Typos, grammatical errors, and sloppy writing only detracts from and diminishes the presentation. And if no friend or colleague is willing to look at the draft, then send it to me. I am happy to offer editorial suggestions.

Does it matter? Of course it does. It matters because passionate attention to detail is precisely what separates the great detailer from everyone else. And it matters because effective presentation of product and service can mean the difference between commercial success and failure. Betamax may have been a superior video machine, but it still lost out to VHS.

I'll get off of my soapbox now. I'm not trying to be controversial and I do not want to offend anyone. I want every professional detailer to prosper commercially and financially. I suppose it's none of my business, but for reasons personal to me, I have a heart for the small businessman. Again I apologize to all I may have offended.

Cheers,
Al

 

Another thing of mention, Todd and Ryan (and others) offer advice and help to other members on the forums and "give back", so to speak, on a regular basis. I know that has nothing to do with ability, but I respect that both of them (and others) do this even though they are very busy with their business and personal lifes.

 

Well said Ken. It is unbelievable how much time is involved in doing the write ups that some of these guys do. Sorting and sizing pictures, some frame their pics and then putting them in sequence and then doing the write up, is very labor intensive. I thought I knew what was involved, but I had no idea. I can see how a few misspelled words or grammatical errors could slip through.

 

Why would you even question PD's ability to get a perfect finish? That just doesn't make any sense.

What we are "COPYING" - the Autopian type of work, he has been doing for over 15 years. Are you suggesting that he leaves behind swirls or holograms just because he doesn't post sun shots?

I would suggest that you e mail him and see if he can provide you with a few of those type of pictures.

I have seen him "give back" many many times.

I'd think the real reason for PD to not flood the numerous detailing sites is most likely because he is REALLY busy. I'd estimate that you can put any 3 top detailers and PD would still come out on top as far as which of the 2 camps are busier.

That is just my guess.

 

I actually found a couple of sun shots on his site, so I retracted my statement.

Ultimately, the answer to this thread will never be definitive. It is all subjective. There is no "best". It just amuses me greatly when people think PD is the best because he can get away with charging so much. Trust me, I know plenty of attorneys that charge a boat load of money and they aren't that good. And when they make absurd statements like:

I would love to see this proven. Everyone likes who they like for whatever reasons may be. That is why previously I stated that I was biased because I'm friends with Todd. I'm not familiar with Clark's work, so I can't comment on his although I'm sure it is very good as his name always seems to come up in these types of conversations. There is nothing that anyone on this board will say that will change anyone's mind, so it's a waste of time. Everyone knows that you will pick whoever is pitted against Todd, so that is fruitless as well.

This is like debating over which wax (insert product here) is the best. There is no one right answer. That's why they are called opinions.....and you know what they say about them.....

:deadhorse:

 

Dude - 2 years ago he was using a pc and Megs#80.

Now he tells people he is the best in the world. of course i will pick someone with more experience. There is no substitution for experience.

he has tried to discredit PD several times like you have just posted, with the "lack of sun pictures" and "not helping others"

I guess his agenda is to be the "king" of detailers?

PD never done anything to him, why be so disrespectful?

================================================

It is getting old.

 

Really strange thread but I can see why the comparisons would be raised.

I don't think it's a very good comparison though, the fact of the matter is this...


...If you detail cars for a living, and through experience and troubleshooting are able to completely level paint, and have half the brain it takes to apply most lsps, how does it truly get any better? Are there people who completely level paint, yet burn a corner here or there on every detail? That would exclude that person.

Does documenting the job make the detailer? For instance if one of you were to take after photos with a 4 mp 5 year old p&s, as opposed to a modern advanced camera, does that take anything away from the work you achieved. Does every detail come with wheel removal for PD, is there anything that cosmetically can be done to each car anyone details, or have the elite guys done EVERYTHING you can possibly do on every car they work on?

I for one enjoy maintanence jobs much more than full corrections as of late. If detailer (a) isn't being compensated to prep and seal the wheel barrels it definitely doesn't make him incapable of doing so.
Maybe the selling of the job itself should come into play a little more, if photography is a big part of what makes a modern detailer why shouldn't sales? Who sells the most high tiered jobs each month? Who has the highest closing percentage when it comes to contracts? The forums are so diluted with monotonous information it's hard to tell who to even believe. I have met several nice people from forums in person, and some who feel very comfortable giving advice and explanations online, and in person aren't able to deliver information or instructions.

It all boils down to money, do what you are paid to do, if your client isn't interested in a concours level service, don't think you are less of a detailer because you don't take pictures of the job covering every surface of the car. The little things quite often take the most time, but they are also the easiest things to do, which is why you should be compensated for them.

I'll be the first to explain to a client what to expect based on the service they have requested, if I am booked for a minor correction, there will be rids remaining, it doesn't mean I can't level them, or touch up work if necc, just that it was not called for in the request. Not one detailer I know is a chemical engineer, or have the ability to cook up their very own product in the kitchen, so the product knowledge shouldn't be taken under consideration. We should all have ample amount of experience with many products, that's what separates us from hacks, (one polish, two pads type stuff on every surface) we are product junkies. I would bet if I had one car, and seven different detailers working on their own panel, they will produce the same result because leveling paint is our business. If you want to sugar coat each step, by all means market it that way if that's what you want to do, but in person, don't expect many pro's results and mannerisms on the job to be too different.

 

Okay, you have proven my point for me, thanks. In two short years, he has gone from that to being compared to and mentioned in the same breath as the "greats". I think that is pretty impressive. You yourself said that PD has been doing this forever, remember?

All of these guys claim to be "the best in the world". Look at PD's website. Would you tell a client or potential client "I'm pretty good?" No, you wouldn't. You would say that you are the best when you are commanding the prices that these guys do.

I don't know about him trying to discredit PD. I do know that a lot of people don't jump on the "nutswing" and just accept that PD is the greatest because of his prices. People would like some proof. PD can do nice work, obviously, but as I mentioned before, there is no best. Photos can easily be manipulated with cameras and Photoshop. Besides, detailers will take photos of what they want you to see. I've seen Todd's work in person and can tell you it is even better in person than it is in photos. I haven't had the pleasure to see Ryan's, Clark's or Pd's for that matter, but I'm sure it is all very good.

Don't you think that every one of these guys strives to be the "king" of detailers? Of course they do. If they don't want to be the best, why bother?

You are right, your personal vendetta against Todd's work, spelling, grammar, etc. is getting old. Everyone knows that you don't like him, so why not just let it be? It was bad enough to have to deal with it on Topia, but now here too?!

I'm done beating this dead horse with you. I hope you can find the maturity and self respect to let this be and stop polluting the forums with it. If you just can't let it be, please keep it to PMs amongst the two of you. I have wasted more than enough time already on this ridiculous crap.

 

What people? WHO ARE YOU SPEAKING FOR?

Anyone that wants to check his work can do what you did and find the proof. Don't you hear yourself? Pathetic!!!!!

Why does your boss care? Who really cares?

So let me see: It is ok for Todd and you to accuse PD of not doing good work, or that he manipulates the pictures, but for me to point out that he should be more respectful is not.

I am tired of the BS agenda as well.

Do you think that PD's work is not seen by other people?

What are you talking about here?

He is obviously insecure and he has you to do his bashing for him.

You should be ashamed.

Todd's work is good enough to speak for itself. He doesn't need to bad mouth other great detailers. Don't you agree?

You should also read Brian's post. Given the time, any of the top detailers can create an immaculate finish.

However, most are not in the position to do that. So you do the best you can in 10 hours (if you are lucky to have that much time).

I am pretty sure Ryan's, Clark's or Pd's for that matter, also look better in person. What is your point?

As a matter of fact awhile back Todd was going to leave Autopia because he was getting a lot of PMs about him manipulating his after pictures. I laughed at that and posted that is is crazy and he shouldn't stop posting because of the H8ters.

You should PM VXRMarc who is a friend of PD and ask him how PD's work look in person.

In case you don't know who he is, he is the guy that a lot of Autopian's copy the way they demonstrate their detailing steps via pictures.

 

Then your answer is simple, you aren't selling your services the way you would like. If you don't make your client aware that their vehicle could use 35 hours of attention, they will never request that type of bill on their own.

If you don't offer it, you will never ever ever sell it. I bet you would enjoy this job even moreso if you were to take a few hours diagnosing the issues at hand with each client. It would also show you know what you are talking about, they will listen, and you will most likely be surprised how many request such work.

It obviously doesn't make much sense offering or suggesting a concours level job on a daily driver, but you have worked on some nice cars, I am sure they would have benefited even more with twice the man hours you were able to put in.

On 20-50 hour jobs you have to deem everything necessary, you and I both know the interior glass and non porous surfaces don't "need" multi step polishing and enhancing, but the FACT is that it can be done. It should not be looked at as upselling, or manipulating, or crooked in any way. There are a multitude of things a lot of detailers have set in thier minds not to do, or not to charge for because they don't feel it's needed. That method of thinking will prevent you from spending 50 hours on a car every time( I am not talking about you directly on this example).

 

Not to get involved, but Todd is the best detailer I have ever worked with. I like all of their write ups though, they are nice to look at, and I know it takes a long time to do them.

 

I heard that you are the best salesman Todd has ever been around! (From Rydawg)

 

I believe it, and agree, true sales people are born, not trained. But you still aren't the genuine article until you are selling something you are passionate about, and believe in.

 

In a profesion that is not standardised you cant gauge whos the best anyways...So till then im off to watch the master on youtube.

 

The master is wise.

 

But to be fair, most of us work on "regular" daily drivers. I've had a couple of people walk when they found out that their newly acquired used black car's paint was trashed and would take 20 to 30 hours. (BMW, MB) But you can't blame them. These pople don't have the money Lambo owners have.

 

I wasn't knocking anyones sales abilities, I work on affordable cars, and would never consider attempting to sell them something like that. I was just expressing my opinion on sales people in general. A great salesperson is not someone who sells nothing but the most expensive item, but imo the one that sells the client what he/she needs. If it were based on a curved commission chart, (once again imo) the best sales people are the ones that are pretty even across the board in terms of most often sold. There is obviously a market for every package every detailer offers, or else its just wasted cyberspace.

If you are selling wash and wax jobs almost exclusively on the other hand, and wish to gain polishing gigs, then you are doing something to prevent yourself from lining up those correction jobs. It's usually about effort, I think a lot of detailers are under the impression that the internet is the best place to line up that type work, and by doing so they limit themselves right off the bat.

Most importantly it is all about your presentation, if you are ok with washing many cars outside a legal office, when the owners aren't even able to grant you a minute to go over their car with them then have at it, but don't expect them to understand the importance of your true passion by you sticking your hand out for their keys. I don't mean a pre meditated presentation either, it's way too easy to see coming, and it comes off robotesque, people don't like that.

 

You got it Brian!!!!!