Diminishing vs. Non-Diminishing Polish

I don't think people who finish with a PC should be looked down on. Some people just can't perfect finishing with a rotary. I know there are times I finish with a rotary and am not happy with the results and bring the PC out for the job.

I was reading another site about this Kevin Brown method for non-diminishing polishes. He hasn't "officially" finished yet but it seems like it's going to be the same thing many of us have been using for years, back when non-diminishing polishes was the norm. Anyone hear of it?

 

yup I've heard of it. I read a 5 page draft of the write up but the author asked for it to be deleted so he could revise a couple areas and include some additional graphs/photos etc..

As a PC user, and relatively new to detailing/correction, it's a breath of fresh air. btw-My Menzerna has been on the shelf for about 4 months.

The PC gains an advantage when non dimishing abrasives are used because I don't see how the PC can actually break down the abrasive particles like they need to be with a dimishing abrasive polish. With something like M105/205, you just polish and check, polish and check vs. working a polish for several minutes per pass.

Keep it up everyone. These are the conversations that educate, confirm and make rookies like myself better.

 

So it's only good for a PC? That is where I get confused. Because wouldn't it be better with just use a rotary? Also, there are different types of abrasives and polishes. If you are using a PC and the abrasives are not diminishing you should look into a polish that works better with a PC.

 

I guess I should have been a little clearer, I don't understand why people can not finish down with a rotary. There is nothing wrong with using the pc but it still has its limits. I have been using it with the Kb method myself for awhile, still debating on whether if it is worth staying with it or using the rotary.

 

The reason why the KB method is for DA use is because you work it long and if you use a rotary the lubricating properties will be depleted before the method is complete...

When I was provided the method it was butt cold and snowy here in Michigan but I just had to try it so I used it on one panel of a car in our prototype garage at work - from my limited use I can say I am very eager to try it some more as it seems VERY promising.

 

Mike Phillips explains why it is not possible to achieve a flawless finish via rotary in the links provided in a previous post contained within this thread. I know it is possible to achieve a flawless finish via rotary in most cases; however, not every time. There are a variety of variables which have the potential to impact results surrounding paint correction. Some are influenced by the operator (i.e., technique, product selection, etc.) However, some are outside of operator control (i.e, paint solidity, ambient environment, etc.). Some persons may lack the technical expertise to obtain the desired finish via rotary; this is provisional considering technical expertise can be enhanced with increased awareness and practical experience. However, self-reliant variables, the dynamics which the practitioner is unable to manipulate, may prevent him or her from achieving preferred results via rotary; in this event, other measures must be considered and explored to acquire sought results. I consider myself a proficient rotary technician and take no offense to your stated opinions; however, I can understand how a novice may be insulted by your remarks and perceived demeanor. It sounds like you are suggesting everyone should be able to pick up a rotary and produce a perfect finish. We all know it takes a considerable amount of dedication. From what I gather, you are an excellent detailer and I'm not assuming your intention is to ridicule anyone on the forum. Just being honest is all; we may just have to agree to disagree and hope members have benefited in some form of fashion from our conversation.

 

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I'm not saying that mine is right, but the fact is, I have NEVER seen a finish that was created by a DA be superior to a rotary. In the hands of someone that isn't very good with a rotary.....of course, but I'm talking about someone that is skilled with a rotary. The level of gloss that is achieved by a properly used rotary is just a step above what a DA can produce. That was actually what got me to move to a rotary, not the speed of correction (which is even being questioned now with the KB method), but the gloss level attained by finishing with a rotary. Also, I'm talking about seeing in person, not in photos.

 

Hey Yukon..do a short road trip to Windsor with an empty bottle. I have a bottle of X3 that I use and like as well as 105. I use both diminishing and non and enjoy them both.

 

I'm not contesting the so called fact that a finish refined by a DA is superior in comparison to that refined via a rotary; in terms of gloss. I'm suggesting that in some situations, where the gentlest of refinement is necessary, a DA is needed to produce a flawless finish. As you mention, this is my opinion, based upon my experience. I have literally needed to finish down with a DA on one vehicle; a jet black Victory motorcycle. Even my Eurow microfiber shag weave towels would induce micro-marring if the slightest pressure was applied. There are several experts (i.e., Mike Phillips, Joe Fernandez- Superior Shine) who are very well versed in detailing and rotary polishing who occasionally resort to the DA for finishing purposes. In regard to the remark surrounding the speed of correction comparing the rotary to the DA; nothing has changed. Kevin Brown's method simply extends the working time of Meguiar's 105. System One's X3 polish and Meguiar's M95 share the same technology and have conventional working times. I'm not a fan of Meguiar's 105, however, you could supplement this product with an additive to prolong working time. Kerosene is an effective lubricant and will readily mix with water or solvent based compounds and polishes; half ounce per gallon of product or .03 ounces (3-4 drops) per 8 ounces is an ideal starting point from which you can add to reach desired working time.

 

I have noticed the x3 in your details. I will pick up some 105 and 205.

 

Definitely some informational conversation that I'd like to see continue... keep it up boys.

I definitely can't wait to find out for myself where the KB method will fit in my routine. Will it replace my rotary? Who knows!?!

I have a '05 M3 lined up in the coming weeks... guess I'll have to try out the KB method and see how well it cuts against the hard BMW clear.

 

anybody know if 1Z are diminishing or non diminishing? what are other good 3m and megs polishes?

 

Yes, I understand that. I meant in the aspect that the users are saying that it can replace multiple steps with the rotary. That, of course, would be quicker. Yes, the actual polishing wouldn't be quicker, but saving more polishing steps would. I was pretty skeptical, but some guys that really know their stuff are telling me to believe the hype. I guess I'm going to have to break down and try it myself.

 

Yes Mike Phillips is a great detailer but that doesn't mean someone else or others do not have a better technique. Also was not trying to say that you can just pick up a rotary and achieve great results, but there is no reason not to use that first and learn. As you stated I was not trying to insult anyone but stating that a flawless finish can and is achieved by a rotary. If others that you feel are the standard of detailing can not do it does not mean it can not be achieved. Just because certain people opt to use the da to finish with does not mean that is the way it should be done or they are any better than anyone else out there. Plese don't take this the wrong way but the people mentioned are not the standard to go by, there are other people out there that I feel are better, just because they have been on the internet the longest and have been mentioned does not mean they are any good. I prefer to go by my own methods that I have used through out the years and continue to expertment all the time to up my game. I just can not really look up to anyone like alot of people do, I rather make my own path and figure out things on my own this has worked very well for me over the years and continue to do.

 

I am still up in the air about it, did it again today and honestly did not feel there was anything to be gained. This could be that I am very efficent with the rotary and it has become a draw between the two methods.

 

I'm not, nor do I intend to become, Mike Phillips protege or crony. I chose to reference information provided by Mike Phillips because his observations are generally unbiased. Which detailer(s) should be epitomized? If I remember correctly, you consider Todd Helmes an "alpha" detailer. In a recent thread I reviewed, Todd Helmes indicated he has not utilized any of his four rotaries in favor of Kevin Brown's polishing method. I'm sure your aware this method employs DA polishers.

New M105 is kicking but w/ KB method - Page 2 - Autopia.org

Although I am convinced you have high regard for you detailing acumen and rotary savvy, I doubt you are clearly better than some of the people you have chosen to discredit in an attempt to vindicate your position. In fact, these individuals frequently share their work and experience in an endeavor to benefit others. Please recommend the course of action I should have accomplished with the rotary to achieve a perfect finish on the jet black Victory motorcycle I have mentioned in previous posts. I made adjustments surrounding product usage, pass rate, pressure, RPMs, etc. Bottom line, transitioning to the PC was the only adjustment I made which provided the desired result.

 

Not trying to discredit Mike at all, just feel no one is the end all. Yes I do appreciate Todd's work and a few others. I can guarantee you that I am just as good if not better than those other people, I don't have to vindicate myself, I have helped numerous people over the years. So trying to belittle me really doesn't mean a whole lot when you need to refrence other peoples threads. I guess in your mind since you detailed a vette you know what you are doing, plus it also looks like if it wasn't for the internet you would be helpless. As far as a course of action, its just not the product, it also has to do with how you work the buffer.

 

Did the Corvette turn out nice in your opinion? Let me guess, you would have done better? So I'm helpless without the internet? I could be like you and base everything on my own opinion, however, this is a public forum; I thought everyone was here to share and learn from each others experiences? This is why I presented other persons testimonies as substance to support my stance. You are useless on your own. Show me some of your work. Again, you are unable to provide any advice which indicates you are any better than any body else who utilizes a rotary polisher; instead you assume you are just better than all the rest and that is why they are unable to achieve similar results. I'm guessing your all grown up; this is pathetic.

 

How can you be useless own your own, it makes you think and figure things out. That is what I have been doing and those you have mentioned. I ask you what would you do then if you didn't have the internet. Also you are correct it is my opinion and a very honest one at that, and I agree it is about sharing information and learning. I am more than willing to help someone out, but I guess I am a little old school and feel you should try things out own your own. Just like defending your own statement instead of using someone elses information, to me that means you do not know what you are talking about.What would you like to know, I would be more than happy to help, plus I have posted numerous times and provided help. I have helped numerous members on here by pm, phone and in person. What kind of work would you like to see? Never said the vette looked bad, but it seems after doing that you want to start preaching. Matter of fact I am all grown up as you stated but if you noticed I believe you were the first to throw the punch. Just returning one, should I have kept it civil after that, possible, but you overstepped by doing that.

 

I agree...you have really helped me out over the past few months since I've started doing this. I really appreciate the patience you've given me and the great information. It's kind of tough to take someone's word for something when you've never worked with them, but I trusted his experience and his wisdom has proven right time and time again for me.