Current Deals and Promotions @ DetailersDomain.com

detailersdomain · Sep 9, 2010

so 7 inch on a 5 inch backing plate?

Philbert_Wormley · Sep 9, 2010

Kevin Brown said:

Thought I would post this up over here... hope it comes in handy.

Here is an article I wrote about the Surbuf a while back. Lots of guys have used this method successfully since. Guys like Bryan Burnworth have tweaked the methodology a bit, but the basic premise is the same. Have fun reading, and enjoy your pads! Hello Elmo O!

Using the Surbuf Pad with a random orbital polisher for defect removal

No pictures of the procedure here.
I find it hard to capture the nuances of a surface properly leveled with a rotary compared to a surface leveled with this method.
Hopefully, one of the forum members will try this method and post some high quality shots of the process.

There are a few combinations that work well when using the random-orbital polisher to level paint. This particular combination uses products that are readily available. I am not suggesting that paint-polishing beginners attempt to wet sand their paint jobs and then polish away the scratches using this system! In fact, only those proficient with the use of a rotary buffer should attempt to use this method. This ensures that any remaining defects can easily be removed, should the listed procedure not work well with the vehicle’s paint type.

Here is the list of products I use for this particular system:

Meguiar’s G110 Random-Orbital Polisher
Meguiar’s M105 Ultra Cut Compound
Meguiar’s Last Touch Detail Spray
Surbuf R Series Microfingers 6.5” pad
Meguiar’s W9006 SoftBuff Finishing Pad

This is not a one-step system, so plan on changing pads and possibly buffing liquid to remove any remaining defects. Since my best results have been achieved when using M105 as the buffing liquid, I recommend that you also use M105. This way, if some guidance or opinions are desired, it will be much easier to troubleshoot unsatisfactory or inconsistent results. There are a lot of highly skilled paint polishers that are members of this forum (and have already used M105), so their experience can also benefit us, should attempts to use this system deliver less than satisfactory results.

The Surbuf R Series Pad, and how I think it works most effectively

A quick read of the years-old comments posted on some forums about the Surbuf pad reveals varied opinions pertaining to overall pad performance. This is understandable, because the type of paint being polished, the choice of buffing liquid, the polishing procedure, and the pressure placed upon the pad can really affect defect removal and polishing results. While this is true with all other pads, the difference in performance when using the Surbuf pad can be dramatic. Besides- this pad was originally touted as a polishing and waxing pad.

One of the biggest complaints about the pad pertained to the fact that the microfingers would fall off the pad and lie upon the paint surface. Normally, this would be a huge problem. In the case of foam pads, a piece of contamination this size placed between the pad and paint surface would likely create some rather deep scratches. Since stray microfingers will not cause a problem with this particular paint leveling procedure, it is not critical to remove loose fibers from the paint surface during the leveling process.
The instruction sheet included with the pad recommends vacuuming the Surbuf pad prior to use. Vacuuming, a quick brush of the pad, or a burst of compressed air aimed at the microfingers will be sufficient for pad preparation.

The Surbuf’s microfingers are attached to a foam pad, set in a vertical position. The literature claims that the microfingers are non-tufted. I suppose this means that the tiny fibers are not plugged into the pads in groups, nor are they long strands of material that have been woven through a backing. This is probably done to keep the fibers completely vertical to the foam portion of the pad, so that the fingers can effectively reach peaks and valleys when used for woodworking tasks. For more information about the pad design, check out their website at Welcome to Surbuf.com.

Individually, the microfingers are thin, pliable, and bend rather easily. However, unlike wool or cotton, the microfingers do not collapse, compress, or squish into a pile. Instead, the fingers maintain their strand-shaped structure. Since they are made of a durable material, the microfingers do not break into smaller pieces as they are used.

When polishing paint with any type of pad, the face of the pad should be designed to efficiently use its surface area. In other words, if a foam pad has lines, squares, circles, or dimples cut out of (or pressed into) the pad face, less actual pad material contacts the paint surface. Certainly then, we hope these areas, devoid of foam, were designed to increase buffing performance or comfort of use, as they unfortunately decrease the amount of surface area in contact with the paint.

Another design parameter that determines how much surface area actually contacts the paint when using foam pads is the amount of pores per inch it features (commonly referred to as ppi). More pores, larger pores, thinner walls between the pores, or how stiff the walls are all affect how much foam contacts the paint during the buffing process.

In the case of the Surbuf pad, not a lot of surface area touches the paint when the pad is set upon it. As the downward pressure applied to the pad is increased, the microfingers start to bend, and the surface area of a finger contacting the paint increases. Ideally, we want as much of each individual microfinger to contact the paint as possible. Therefore, the fingers must be somewhat horizontal to the paint surface. If too much pressure is placed upon the pad, the microfingers bend so much that the tips of the fingers start to curl upwards towards the foam portion of the pad (like a fish hook, or the capital letter J). This happens because the fingers start to lie upon each other, tightly compressed and randomly bent. If even more pressure is added in an attempt to create a flatter pad surface, the fingers will intertwine with each other, and create an uneven surface that could easily scratch or scour the paint (think of the structure of a Scotch-Brite pad, and you will better understand the net effect of too much pressure). In addition, the fingers become packed with buffing liquid, and start sticking to the foam part of the pad. To ensure satisfactory defect removal, the buffing liquid should remain on the paint surface, and lightly coat the microfingers with its abrasive material.

To verify this theory, I placed a Surbuf pad on a table with the fingers facing up. Then, a 12” x 12” piece of glass was set upon the fingers. As I pressed against the glass, I could see how the microfingers reacted to varied pressures. My suspicions were confirmed. For best results, I wanted the fingers to bend, but not so much that they curled or compressed.

On to the leveling procedure!

Professional users of the random-orbital seem to be pairing their machines with smaller pads more frequently. For general paint polishing, I also prefer pads that are 5” to 6.5” in diameter, and thinner in overall height, rather than thicker. While there are some benefits to using larger and thicker pads, most of the time I use smaller pads for defect removal (as small as three inches in diameter).

With this in mind, I attached my 5” Surbuf pad to a Meguiar’s W67DA backing plate (approximately 4.75” diameter). As I used this pad and backing plate combination, best leveling results were realized when the machine was adjusted to the highest speed setting (6,700 opm). The more I used the pad, the more I found myself lifting up on the machine to minimize downward pressure.

To eliminate this necessity, I switched to a 6.5” diameter pad and a bigger backing plate. The increased surface of the pad would better distribute the downward applied pressure created by the weight of the machine. Of course, the amount of microfingers working to level the paint was substantially increased (approximately 68%). This combination worked great; the fingers bent enough to really level the paint quickly, but left a bit of wiggle room so that if needed, I could tilt the machine now and then to better focus the downward applied pressure. A huge benefit of the Surbuf’s unique design is airflow. Since the design of the pad allows plenty of fresh air to circulate between the fingers and across the paint surface, things stay pretty darned cool, even during heavy cutting.

To help keep the M105 buffing liquid where the work needed to be done, I kept the paint surface wet. A trigger bottle filled with a 50/50 mixture of Meguiar’s Last Touch Detail Spray and water was used to occasionally mist the paint surface. This bit of added moisture would wet the microfingers as they rubbed across the paint, loosening a majority of the abrasive from the fibers. The inertia created by the machine would help to return the abrasive to the paint surface. While the abrasive was devoid of the buffing liquid’s built-in lubrication due to evaporation caused by friction, the addition of Last Touch helped to keep the paint slippery.

The addition of Last Touch may decrease cutting ability a little, but it may actually increase leveling. Since less friction is created because lubrication is increased, the random-rotation of the pad increases. In my experience, this means that the rotational speed can jump as much as 100% at the point where the buffing liquid’s lubrication evaporates. I have seen my G110 rotate the pad very quickly; my best guess puts pad rotation at eight to ten turns per second, or 480-600 rpm. Anyone that has used the Flex 3401VRG knows the effect this kind of speed has on defect removal.

So, if our pad rotational speed increases but there is a notable drop in friction, how can the pad actually level paint to a more accurate degree? My best guess is this: as an individual fiber comes into contact with a high point on the paint surface (such as the top point of a sanding scratch), it will have less time to adjust positioning once it hits the point. This means that the fiber will remain in the same position longer, so it will cut through the edge of the first point, and only change direction via deflection a small amount before hitting the next point, and on and on.

Whether this is true or not does not really matter. What does matter is how well this combination works. The pads are relatively inexpensive, and last a reasonably long time. Since the fingers are applying a rather durable and hard abrasive material, I realize that the fingers will wear out quickly compared to using them with a non-abrasive polishing liquid (or a liquid that does not contain such hard abrasive particles). But hey- if this combination can create a very level surface using a random-orbital… it is a small price to pay.

Once the paint has been leveled and all random defects have been eliminated, a final polishing will more than likely be required. Although the Surbuf pad levels paint quite well, it does seem to leave behind a small amount of curly-que scratches. While these marks are usually very fine, they are obvious. To remove them, change the pad to a traditional style foam finishing pad, and use a final polish as you normally would. If you are a skilled user of the random-orbital polisher, very little distortion of the ultra-leveled surface should occur (if any).

I hope I have explained this process in an easy to understand manner.
Good luck, and be patient when traveling through the learning curves!

Close-up pictures of the Surbuf Pad

I took some pics with a little 150x magnification USB camera.
I wanted to show what the Surbuf microfingers look like when they are flattened a bit.
For reference, I also took a shot of a Meguiar's W8006 SoftBuff Polishing Pad, a Meguiar's M9910 Ultimate Wipe, and a Mirka Abralon disc.

Funny thing is, my $12 Radio Shack magnifier with a built-in light works way better!
I can't figure out how to capture the shot with it, though.
With it, I can tell if a sanding disc is a coarse or fine grit, and even if it is worn out!

In the pictures, the pointer is the lead tip of a Pentel .5mm pencil:

Shot of the Meguiar's W8006 SoftBuff Polishing Pad:

Shot of the Surbuf R Series Pad:

Shot of a Meguiar's M9910 Ultimate Wipe (used and washed several times):

Mirka Abralon 4000 grit Sanding Disc:

It is interesting to see the structure of the foam pad... Easy to see why we lose so much cut!
Not a lot of surface area to force the particles into the paint as they're being moved about.
This is why pressure changes make such a difference in cut with any foam pad.

Chris Dasher aka PorscheGuy997's post:[/color]

I have been messing around with DA wetsanding and using the Surbuf on the DA for a few weeks now.
In the past, I have never tried removing wetsanding marks with the DA. The rotary does such a good job that I never tried it.
But, I did take the suggestions from Kevin and gave the Surbuf pads a try.

The Surbuf pads are very different from the foam pads we normally use.

Because these pads are so different, they can remove defects that are simply unheard of.

Here's an example:

I DA sanded this scrap hood using a Mirka Abranet Soft 1500 disk.

Using a 5.5" Surbuf pad and the original formula M105 on the DA, I was able to remove the 1500 grit marks.
Although there is some deep etching, you can clearly see that the marks have been removed.

The finish left by the Surbuf pad and M105 is a little hazed, but it can easily corrected with PO106FA or M205 on a polishing pad.
So yes, a DA (with the right combination) can remove serious defects.

Notes about the Surbuf pad:

The amount of product is absolutely critical.
If you apply too much product, it will not remove many defects.
I found that it was best to prime the pad with product and then polish the area.
If you find that there is too much product on the surface, wipe it off the area and then continue polishing without adding more product.

The amount of pressure used can also very important.

Follow Kevin's guidelines and you should be fine.

Surbuf offers many different sizes of pads.
The 5.5" pads were perfect for my use, but you can choose whatever size you like.

The latest testing has revealed that a 7" pad is a very good choice.
It delivers high rotation speed, serious defect removal, and user comfort.
The large size distributes added downward pressure nicely (should the user have a desire to bear down on a particularly stubborn defect).

Use caution!

A word of caution:
On fresh paint (or paint containing flex agent), there is enough applied force with this method that the paint could 'twist'.

Paint twisting occurs when the heat and friction created by the machine, pad, buffing liquid, and applied pressure combine to alter the bond between the paint, primer, or substrate it is attached to.

What does this mean?
Well, the result of paint twist resembles the sidewall of a drag slick leaving the line. I do not have a picture to show paint twist, because it is rather rare. Maybe the next time I work on a freshly painted test panel I can try to make a twist mark.

Normally, it takes a pretty aggressive combination to twist paint.
A rotary buffer and a wool pad (or a dense foam pad) teamed with a decent amount of pressure could do it. Buffing liquids containing strong solvents increase the risk of it, too. About ten years ago I twisted a small area of paint on a bumper cladding, but I was able to sand and polish the area, repairing the damage.

In an extreme case of paint twist... the paint can actually be torn off the panel! It is rare, but I have seen it happen. A few years ago I had spent about 50 hours sanding and polishing a paint job. Someone else decided to 'touch-up' buff an small area and within a few seconds managed to twist a quarter-size piece of paint right off.

So, as with most things, proceeding with caution and common sense is an asset.

End.
Click to expand...

Kevin Brown said:

Played around a bit with it on a rotary, but not a tremendous amount.
The problem I ran into was what you might expect- the pad packed full of abrasive as the lube dried up. If you use a spritz of water to loosen things up, the fast pad rotation flings the juiced up M105, creating a mess in the process. Besides- if the M105 is a' flinging off the pad and paint... kind of a waste, right?

So... drop the speed of the buffer to avoid the flinging and quick evaporation of the built-in lubrication, and cutting power drops to the point that a wool of foam pad could equal or surpass the Surbuf's ability to cut away defects.

Given the fact that the Surbuf seems to like high rotational speed, you'd think that the rotary would deliver better results than the random orbital. When have we heard that before?!

Let's run the numbers. My best guess puts a typical 5/16" stroke machine as being able to muster a MAXIMUM of 10-11 turns per second, using a light amount of pressure (to the point of actually lifting UP on the machine), and some added watery lube for good measure. That equates to between 600-660 RPM. Of course, if you use a 4" Surbuf versus a 7", the 7" pad is spinning at a MUCH higher speed at the outer edge of the pad.

Whatever, back on track- most guys won't use a rotary at such a slow speed. But even if they DID run their Makita or Metabo or other rotary that features a 600 RPM setting at the low setting, what have they gained over the random orbital?

Nothing. If fact, they've GIVEN up A LOT. Don't forget the OSCILLATING motion of the random orbital! That's right- 6,000 to 6,800 motions per minute! THAT, my friend, is a lot of polishing potential.

The Surbuf is NOT for everybody. Sure it works, but unless you spend some time to figure out how to finesse things, you're probably going to be left thinking, "what's the deal here?"

This is all just my opinion. I could be completely off... but I don't think so. :crasy:
Click to expand...

:graduation: Kevin Brown Dropping Knowledge :applause:

Philbert_Wormley · Sep 9, 2010

detailersdomain said:

so 7 inch on a 5 inch backing plate?
Click to expand...

Yes Kevin, I have the same question :shead:

Are we talking DA or Rotary here :shead:

Phil, put me down for 2 each. Just not sure what size untill Kevin instructs me forward :hmph:

Kevin Brown · Sep 9, 2010

I wouldn't use them with a rotary for the reasons outlined previously.
Orbital, random orbital, forced rotation orbital, YES.

As for which diameter backing plate to use... use a plate that will support the pad as much as possible.
With a 7" pad, I use a backing plate that measures 5-7/8" across. It works just fine.

Philbert_Wormley · Sep 9, 2010

Kevin Brown said:

I wouldn't use them with a rotary for the reasons outlined previously.
Orbital, random orbital, forced rotation orbital, YES.

As for which diameter backing plate to use... use a plate that will support the pad as much as possible.
With a 7" pad, I use a backing plate that measures 5-7/8" across. It works just fine.
Click to expand...

Thanks Kevin. I always feel so stupid after talking with you aranoia:

P.S. Tell Annie, Trouble sends her regards eace:

Philbert_Wormley · Sep 9, 2010

Phil, you wouldn't happen to carry 5-7/8" BP's would you :shead:

Kevin Brown · Sep 9, 2010

Philbert_Wormley said:

Thanks Kevin. I always feel so stupid after talking with you aranoia:

P.S. Tell Annie, Trouble sends her regards eace:
Click to expand...

O-M-G.... I will! :yikes:

Kevin Brown · Sep 9, 2010

Philbert_Wormley said:

Phil, you wouldn't happen to carry 5-7/8" BP's would you :shead:
Click to expand...

Checked your site, Phil, but not sure if I saw all the plates you offer.
I am sure you've got one available on the site, or access to them through one of your brands.

Pretty much any typical backing plate made for 6" sanding discs will work just fine.

I have used:

Meguiar's S6BP

Mirka 106GG

Mirka 916SGV

detailersdomain · Sep 9, 2010

Thanks again Kevin.

The item is now up for pre-ordering.

detailersdomain · Sep 9, 2010

Surbuf Promotion going on now!

http://www.detailingbliss.com/forum...-surbuf-pads-coming-soon-detailers-domain.htm

Philbert_Wormley · Sep 10, 2010

Kevin Brown said:

O-M-G.... I will! :yikes:
Click to expand...

Yes, it is I :giggle:

detailersdomain said:

Thanks again Kevin.

The item is now up for pre-ordering.
Click to expand...

Order 20635 placed

detailersdomain · Sep 10, 2010

thanks!

Pats300zx · Sep 10, 2010

Order 20638 placed

MelF1fan · Sep 10, 2010

Very nice, might look into getting some of these. Might make me use my old PC again. Wonder with the proper technique interesting to see what kind of time savings this vs. Rotary correction.

Even though i don't have one, yet, do these pads work any good with the Flex 3401 ? The bigger sized pads i assume are recommended with the Flex.

detailersdomain · Sep 10, 2010

Flat Shipping and Free Shipping Options Detailersdomain's Weblog

detailersdomain · Sep 10, 2010

Okay so I've decided to run this one till the end of the year and assess from then.

So enjoy!

A FLAT SHIPPING RATE OF $8.88 ON ORDERS UNDER $149.95

FREE SHIPPING ON ORDERS OVER $150.00.

OFFER ENDS 1/1/2011

You will be able to combine this with any offer.

NOTE:
- Shipping promo good for the lower 48 States
- You will be able to combine this with any offer.
- There will be other options so if there is a lower rate it will be presented.

Chas · Sep 10, 2010

That's awesome Phil!

Legacy99 · Sep 10, 2010

Will you ship flat rate to Hawaii?

Philbert_Wormley · Sep 10, 2010

Legacy99 said:

Will you ship flat rate to Hawaii?
Click to expand...

detailersdomain said:

- Shipping promo good for the lower 48 States
Click to expand...

:shead:

GDAL · Sep 10, 2010

Thanks Phil ... that's awesome.

Log in or Sign up

Current Deals and Promotions @ DetailersDomain.com

Free Shipping over $50 or a Prom Code?

Free shipping over $50

Promo Code of 10% off

detailersdomain Administrator

Philbert_Wormley Banned

Philbert_Wormley Banned

Kevin Brown Buff Daddy

Philbert_Wormley Banned

Philbert_Wormley Banned

Kevin Brown Buff Daddy

Kevin Brown Buff Daddy

detailersdomain Administrator

detailersdomain Administrator

Philbert_Wormley Banned

detailersdomain Administrator

Pats300zx Official DB Moderator

MelF1fan Birth of a Detailer

detailersdomain Administrator

detailersdomain Administrator

Chas DB Forum Supporter

Legacy99 Wax on..Wax off

Philbert_Wormley Banned

GDAL Guest

Share This Page

Log in or Sign up

Current Deals and Promotions @ DetailersDomain.com

Free Shipping over $50 or a Prom Code?

Free shipping over $50

Promo Code of 10% off

detailersdomain Administrator

Philbert_Wormley Banned

Philbert_Wormley Banned

Kevin Brown Buff Daddy

Philbert_Wormley Banned

Philbert_Wormley Banned

Kevin Brown Buff Daddy

Kevin Brown Buff Daddy

detailersdomain Administrator

detailersdomain Administrator

Philbert_Wormley Banned

detailersdomain Administrator

Pats300zx Official DB Moderator

MelF1fan Birth of a Detailer

detailersdomain Administrator

detailersdomain Administrator

Chas DB Forum Supporter

Legacy99 Wax on..Wax off

Philbert_Wormley Banned

GDAL Guest

Share This Page

Useful Searches