3M UltraFina

Yea the UK products are not cheap :shakehead: :shakehead: but I enjoy using there products :chest: :chest:

 

:S 3m products are not cheap in general. Whenever it is 3M it is like there is a $20 premium just because it is made by them. it sucks because they are actually really good products.

 

Interesting observations, regarding the "deeper wetter". Considering that both 85 and UF use a lot of oils, are you saying the oils where "deeper wetter" or the finish after you wiped the polish off?

Did you use Prep Sol (or atleast alochol) for a wipedown before noticing this "deeper wetter".

I have only used 85 a couple of times, very oily (which isn't bad at all because it keeps dusting down and limits the chance for pad abrasion) and like you I found that it was a little more difficult to remove the majority of the polish from the paint. Of course to get either polish completely off the paint you would need to rewash or wipe with prep-sol.

I honestly cannot tell too much of a difference between the "looks" of 106ff, 85RD, or UF, though on softer paint, I think UF does look sharper. As you eluded to, looks are subjective anyways.

What concerns me is the filling ability of 106ff (not sure if this applies to 85RD). It has the ability to make less then perfect paint look perfect for a long time and requires the use of prep-sol (and sometimes several applications) to fully remove the lubrication. I know that pretty much the who's who of detailers has PM'ed me (I think Rydawg and I have counted upwards of 30 people who have PM'd us with similar experinces) and have seen trails comming back after a couple months.

However, with UF, I have never seen anything come back.

Grouse, don't take this the wrong way, but do you have an affilation with Menzerna, buddies with Jeff, or any of the vendors who sell Menzerna? It seems to me that if everybody was telling me something filled (even if not by design) I would head their warning and learn from it. You seem to take it a little personal, which makes me question your motives.

 

I'm not sure what better way to say this but a quote from Menzerna NA...
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Please allow me the opportunity to set the record straight regarding this thread. Menzerna polish does not swell a cured clear coat to temporarily hide swirls/haze/scratches, etc.

I am concerned that the origin of this idea appeared on a competitor’s forum under the topic “snake oil & other gizmo’s” with an obvious vested interest in raising concerns or doubts about the Menzerna product. It now migrates to this forum where Menzerna is sold and is stated as a “question” where it is “concluded” that it “may” cause swelling. Anyone with a basic understanding of polymers, automotive paint, or polishing would know this to be nonsense. I know of no other polish product that could be accused of swelling paint for the purpose of hiding defects.

No evidence has been provided to support this claim either in fact or theory. The collective experience of the forum members, coating engineers, automobile manufacturers (customers of Menzerna) and industrial paint users has been successful permanent paint defect repair.

If you want to test your conclusion, then pour some polish on an area to be polish and wait. If a chemical action is going to swell a clear coat intentionally, then you would not even need to turn on the buffer and the swirls would be gone.

Jeff Silver
MenzernaUSA

end quote.

Don't shoot the messenger I just wanted to make sure people are aware of what the manufacturer is saying.

 

Not sure if that has anything to do with Ultra Fina? Did somebody say that Menzerna was swelling paint (besides Anthony Orosco)?

 

Maybe I read this wrong but you just said:

What concerns me is the filling ability of 106ff (not sure if this applies to 85RD). It has the ability to make less then perfect paint look perfect for a long time and requires the use of prep-sol (and sometimes several applications) to fully remove the lubrication. I know that pretty much the who's who of detailers has PM'ed me (I think Rydawg and I have counted upwards of 30 people who have PM'd us with similar experinces) and have seen trails comming back after a couple months.

End quote

 

I had the samething Todd is talking about happen to a few cars I used 106ff on. I re-did them the sameway and the samething happened again, I just wanted to make sure it wasnt me causing the problem. I changed my process and havent had a problem since.

 

Ahhh. From what I gather, 106ff uses a lubricating wax, which can be difficult to remove fully from certain paints. I don't know about swelling and would assume that is untrue on all accounts. I have spoken to several people over seas who have told me that Menzerna of Germany is pretty forth comming about the wax lubrication. I would assume that the problem is because 106ff was designed to work in a specific enviorment, with a certain pad, on certain paint, which is why Menzerna of Germany did not want to market this product to us.

I do know that (including the post after you) a lot people are having this problem, with trails and swirls reappering months after application, and its definetly becomming more then an isolated incident. Honeslty, in the last month, I have recieved no less then 20 pms from detailers describing the post above this one.

One thing that I was told is that on the assembly line (which SIP/106 are made for) is that SIP is used to finish the paint down to perfection and 106 is used only to ensure that it is perfect. I am not sure how true this is, but I have been using SIP on a white and working it until it looks perfect, then finishing with 106ff on a blue to make sure no holograms will come back. Since using it this way (as the best I can tell, the way it was designed to be used) I have not had any problems.

The problems seem to occur most when people go from a moderate polish/pad and try to use 106ff for defect removal to correct any marring left behind. The cut on 106ff is very light, and it was designed as a hologram remover more then a defect remover. I think when people expect to much out of it is when the possiblity of defects returning is greater.

I remember when I first posted my suspisions about this, people jumped on me. Now many of the people who did that have apologized and actually admitted to having the same problems I orginally spoke about.

 

Those are interesting points you bring up Todd about 106FF, I honest haven't had any problems with 106FF or have seen what your describing but I have to admit I haven't used 106FF to remove imperfections, I usually use 85RD3.02 or something else prior to 106FF or 106FA but I'll have to keep an eye on this.

Just curious does any one have a picture of using 106FF and a badly swirled vehicle? I'll see if I can get a vehicle and polish it with just 106FF and see I can get the results that Todd is talking about...yay more polishing :woo:

As for UF, I need to play with it some more to get familiar with it but so far I'm quite pleased with the products but that's just my :2cents: oooh Scholl products are quite nice too..but that's another story lol.

 

you


Just how good is Menzerna, I'll tell you - Corvette Forum

Yes tedd, i am secretly jeff silvers assistant by day and a car detailer by night.

I pay for my product. I have purchased every bit of it. I don't solicite for free product, or samples. I am sending out the majority of the uk version to two members i know. I have my 12 oz.

FWIW i used it on 1/2 and 85 on the other of my 01 tahoe. They worked and looked about the same. 85 is a bit more oily and does not come off as easy. walking from one side of the car to the other i can not tell the difference. My point is that it is not a miracle product, it is a product that like any other has it's uses and limitations.

 

As far as the post from Corvette forum, I explained before, after, and durning that post that this is what I had heard and you are taking it out of context to make a point.

But you do have some type of affliation with them because of your defense of their products. If you can't tell a difference, and 85 is harder to remove, then why do you prefer it to UF?

By your own admission, both produce similar results, but one is easier to work with, that being UF. So then, what behind the scenes, is making you choose a harder to use product for similar results?

 

Okay boys play nice, if you two have an issue keep it outside the forum...I don't like drama :shakehead:

 

I have been using Menzerna PO106FF and PO85RD fro quite a while now and have not experienced any paint swelling or defects returning. We even wet sanded a C6 Z06 and followed up 3m Compound with 106ff for our final polish and NOTHING returned and all of the sanding scratches never returned. Menzerna and 3M are my two favorite polishes although I have not tried the UltraFina yet.

 

Yes, 106 unintentionally fills when it isn't used correctly. From the write ups I read, Id say the majority aren't using it correctly IMO. And I don't think those people are doing wipe downs either. So that might explain why they aren't finding this out.

 

:agree:

They do contain a petroleum distillate (silicone oil) but it's a lubricant, not a solvent. They do not contain any filler, glaze or silicones.

It should also be noted that these polishes use oil in water emulsion or wax for lubrication; a good practice in normal circumstances, but very necessary if you are using a polymer after polishing, a wipe-down of the polished paint surface; utilizing Menzerna Top Inspection or a 1:1 solution of isopropyl alcohol (IPA) and distilled water or DuPont's Prepsol solvent.

 

Dan, I could not have said it any better, so true.

 

This makes me think why would Menzerna make Top Inspection? It may be for the purpose of removing anything that they have in it that could be "filling". They had to have a need for it.

 

It's called money. There's no way that whatever is in that bottle is worth the $25 list price or even the $20 selling price. That said, I have a bottle and will see what it offers soon.

 

or its how lazy you are...

I love top inspection and yes its way too expensive.

I really thought it would come in at $9.95 but the currency and shipping just kills it.

That said tons of people buy it

 

They want to ensure a pristine paint surface after polishing and to ensure there are no oils/wax left on the surface.

It does make the paint squeeky clean, is it better than IPA, mmmm, but PrepSol IMO can't be beat.

I saved this from Menz and post it for info/comment-
Quote: It is impossible to remove silicon from a painted surface without using a chemical process so aggressive that it dissolves the paint. Wax and grease removers will chemically remove one layer of silicon off at a time but are unable to completely remove all the silicon. Tests by Dr Michael Hauber at Menzerna using a spectroscope showed the layers become thinner but the silicon remains. Removing silicon completely can take place over time and involves a lengthy process of oxygen, chemicals, time and sunlight."

There is a need to differentiate between swirl marks in the silicon layer and swirl marks in the paint surface underneath. Some polishes may appear to remove the swirl marks in the paint but are really only working on the layer of silicon, so the swirl marks in the paint surface remain unaffected by polishing."