What's Suds Got to do with it?? Are they important

So like Tina Turner said "What's Suds Got to do, got to do with it????"

I need your opinions and explanations on if and why you think suds are beneficial in doing a traditional (2 bucket) wash.

When I shop for wash shampoo's/soaps I focus on lubricity and strength - for maint washes I want something that is gentle on LSP, for decontamination (stripping) wash I was something strong (obviously...lol)

Suds has NEVER been a factor in my decision on what to buy...

I really would appreciate all your opinions, change my mind!!!

Thanks!

 

I think I kinda started this in the other thread... but yes, this is a good new thread.

I will preface my statements by saying I have no scientific reasoning for my thoughts.

I consider suds as a vehicle to lift dirt off of the surface of the car, to suspend and hold the dirt so that it's easy to wash away. Additionally, I would say Suds help suspend the soap on the car and keep it from sliding off too quickly.

I will also say that it is visually apealing to see suds are there and in my mind doing work.

 

I personally would not enjoy using a soap or car wash that does not create suds. The suds probably do SOMETHING, even if they are created a layer of air between the dirt, your mitt and the paint surface.

That's why I enjoy using CG's Citrus Wash. Top stuff.

 

I think they make the soap cling to the surface better. I dont think suds have much to do with actually lifting the soap off the surface. I mean maybe if suds make soap cling to the surface longer, then it lifts more dirt. But I dont think because you have more suds, more dirt will be lifted. If that makes sense. Reason I think that is because Megs NXT is a strong soap, with very little suds.

 

suds, in my opinion, are a byproduct of the lubricity of the product. Any product that I have used that's really slick, is also very 'sudsy'.

 

Aren't suds just a bunch of air bubbles? I don't see how they would affect a soaps cleaning ability. It might just be a byproduct of the ingredients in the soap. I wouldn't be surprised if some manufacturers added ingredients to the soap to produce more suds just because so many like the suds.

 

I love suds because they cling to the vehicle and its easier to "soak" those dirtier cars.

Other than that, I dont think they serve a purpose!

 

Seems to me that suds provide the medium for LIFTING dirt from the surface when washing. I would think that suds keep the dirt suspended so as to help keep them off the surface as you wash. Not sure just seems that would be the case.

I would think that the greater surface tension of the suds would be the sole reason for dirt staying suspended as dirt would easily go through water because of the lack of surface tension.

 

likewise as everyone is saying i think suds are kinda like soda..or chamagne's effervesent (sp, bubbles!) - it has the theory of actually 'lifting' whatever particles off the paint.

i would have to say i prefer a SHAMPOOP that suds =)

 

So you really think that IF debri is in fact suspended in the bubbles that it will remain that way once you pit your mitt/bone/etc to the paint?

I tend to think that any dirt that may be suspended in the bubbles would also be suspended in the slimey liquid that is formed from the soap being mixed in.... wouldn't that also be the surface tension that has been spoken of?

As far as it lifting dirt off the surface, I am having a hrd time imagining how that would happen.. If they were "carbonated" bubbles I would tend to agree

 

See I would think that a bucket full of slimy water would have a lot of dirt on the bottom of the bucket when you finished, conversely I think and know that when you have a bucket of sudsy water you will actually see the suds turning brown/black from dirt (provided you didn't use the two bucket method). Therefore there would be less dirt on the bottom of the bucket and thats how I got my therory (which is all it is it has no scientific proof to back it up) about suds and their surface tension suspending the dirt.

 

Suds has really nothing to do with encapsulating dirt...look at the waterless washes...its the surfacants and sufacants that form a barrier on the dirt to add a lubrication to them to lift and prevent scratching....look at automatic dish washer soap..they do not suds...they just clean....suds are to look pretty...like a bubble bath....if the water is slick..and cleans the paint good....its working....people with hard water hardly ever get much sudzing ..but the car is clean....and with proper wash techniques ...marless also....

AL

 

Yeah, like I said, Megs NXT is strong, but doesnt produce a lot of suds. So I also dont see how suds and lift dirt? But thats really the only thing Im basing my opinion off of.

 

This is one HELL of a technical discussion about BUBBLES BOYS!!!

 

I agree with the waterless washes but don't they use surfactants in place of suds. I thought that the two do the same thing. Also in a dishwasher nothing is coming into direct contact with the surface, so you wouldn't have to worry about scratches, that's why conventional ones do sud because you are washing by hand. I also think that manufacturers use the suds because most people don't use proper washing techniques and the suds would help reduce the amount of chance for marring.

If you used a waterless/rinseless wash and only used the same mitt and no rinse bucket do you think you run a greater risk of marring than if you used a conventional sudsing soap and only one mitt and no rinse bucket? That I guess is where I get my theory.

 

If I do not use my water filter when washing there are hardly any suds and with filter there are plenty of suds, after doing this both ways there was not a difference in how the shampoo worked so I would have to agree with Al that they really dont play a roll in cleaning the car.

 

Man talk about an interesting topic, okay but I got one for you guys and not trying to hijack the thread, just something to throw at you guys.

The foam from the foam guns aka shaving creame lol. Does that help to pick up dirt? I mean it's like the suds but thicker...well at least I think so...but just wondering what you guys think of that.

Heck I just think it's cool to see avehicle covered in soap lol.

 

I think it helps the soap cling to the surface longer, thus picking up more dirt.

 

i jus cleaned my bathroom with scrubbing bubbles...hehe i think those bubbles make a difference !

 

I got this info from TOGWT and his book “Automotive Detailing Inside & Out, A Knowledge Base for the Perfectionist"– by Jon Miller aka TOGWT™

"Car Wash Concentrates:
A good quality car wash (Zaino Z-7™ Show Car Wash or Groit’s Car Wash) provides a slightly alkaline pH-7.5 and balanced blend of active biodegradable ingredients, to provide lubrication to prevent scratching, to lift and encapsulate dirt, road grime and oils.

Water quality (pH value, mineral content, harness, etc) and other characteristics will affect how well a car wash concentrate works. As well as conditioners to maintain the shine without stripping the paint of essential oils (the way detergents do) and dispersing them in the rinsing process, warm water (not hot) will improve the cleaning abilities of wash concentrates.

The amount of foaming produced has nothing to do with its cleaning efficiency (although it does provide a means of encapsulation as well as acting a cushion between the paint surfaces and cleaning tool) when laundry was done with soap flakes; suds level was an indicator of cleaning performance. Many people still equate a good rich level of suds with cleaning; however, this is no longer true. Today's quality car wash concentrates are formulated with anionic surfactants that have a very low suds level without affecting cleaning performance. One of the advantages of this formulation is that road dirt and grime are encapsulated in its structure (micelles), which makes for very easy and efficient rinsing.

Harsh detergents found in some car wash soaps contain sodium silicate or sodium hydroxide may etch the surface of the clear-coat leaving white residue or dulling the entire finish. Car wash concentrates that contain a high foaming (suds) agent can be corrosive, if sodium (salt) is used as an agent to create the foaming. The usual dilution is l oz per two gallons water (using a lesser dilution will leave a film on the paint surface) Avoid products that contain harsh detergents as they will emulsify and leach out any oils or waxes that provide protection and/or flexibility
(See also Alkalinity, pH Values, Hard Water, Water Filtration)

“Automotive Detailing Inside & Out, A Knowledge Base for the Perfectionist"– by Jon Miller aka TOGWT™ "

I thought that was some very good information on the subject.