Wash Theory

Discussion in 'Pre Wash, Wash, Decon, Claying, Engine, Wheels, an' started by Bunky, Sep 10, 2009.

  1. Bunky

    Bunky Guest

    There are "conservatives" who think that a lamb's wool mitt is the best mitt and cringe people even mention the word sponge. The argument from the anti-sponge crowd is that there is no nap so it can scratch because you are trapping dirt against the paint. This seems to make some sense.

    What we have seen is a number of products (sponges, ONR, etc) that get results without issues yet go against some basic assumptions behind how a wash media, soap, etc. actually cleans cars. This tells me that people really never understood how the process worked and used the results to justify the theory.

    Now, what I would like to know is what is really happening in the wash process to understand why the "no nap" ideology is not valid. I saw a pic of the sponge being used and I see the sponge is not just gliding over the paint. Yes, I am sure any "tool" can be misused to actually mar or swirl the paint.
     
  2. supercharged

    supercharged DB Forum Supporter

    I think it all comes down to how dirty the paint is. Personally ever since upgrading to pressure washer and foam lance, and giving a car a good presoak with a snow foam, letting it dwell for 10 minutes, then giving it a good rinse, and only then wash with Zymol sponge has never gave me any marring...90% of dirt adn grime is gone pretty much BEFORE I even start washing.
    Now back to the wool mitt theory, believers still believe that the dirt will be trapped in a mitt, and released in a rinse bucket...true??? Maybe...But wool mitt will never replace what pressure washer and foam lance go - giving a good presoak and remove as much dirt/grime as possible WITHOUT any wash media even touching the paint...
     
  3. MoeMistry

    MoeMistry Any Rag Vehicle Washer

    Well-said....I've been using a lambs wool mitt for over a decade. I'll have to give your technique a try....guess I need to buy more tools....:)
     
  4. 911Fanatic

    911Fanatic DB Pro Supporter

    I agree. Although I would never trade my mitt for a sponge, using a pwasher and foam lance before you wash is probably the single biggest thing you can do to avoid inducing swirls.
     
  5. kustomizingkid

    kustomizingkid Nuba Guru

    I want a foam lance so bad....
     
  6. agpatel

    agpatel OD On Detailing

    The basic principal behind washing anything with soap, a car, skin, table, is that the solution has the ability to emulsify the dirt, and once it is in emulsion that the lubricant in the soap solution is able to move if over the surface so that it is not physically touching the surface but going into the media and or on a microscopic layer of lubricant. So that is the basic theory.

    Here is the two sides:

    Wool/Nap Media:

    The nap enables the emulsified contamination to go into the media thus it is not gliding over the paint and has less chance of scratching the surface. Now the media itself is touching the paint and depending on pressure it could mar the surface and push hard enough than the contamination in solution deep in the media could come into contact with the paint.

    Sponge:

    This is the tricky one so I will just say this is a flat surface sponge like the Uber sponge or Zymol sponge. But what this does is the contamination is between the sponge/paint interface but it is in a emulsified so theoretically not touching the surface or harming it. The sponge media is on the other hand touching the surface in many areas, some may be going over water but most cases it is touching the surface. Depending on the media the dirt can go into the sponge, not much but maybe 1-2x the diameter of the contamination were it says.

    So as technology has improved and new emulsifying solutions have been created and perfected the chances that the contamination touches the paint has greatly been reduced. A while back this technology was not there and the chances were greater thus wool and media with nap was better.

    It comes down to personal preference and what makes you happy, but with today's soaps both are safe but like it has been said in the wrong hands both can turn bad.


    Now also know that this is considering dust, dirt particles not large pieces of contamination which no type of emulsification can provide protection from marring, it will help but with larger contamination the solution just does not help as much as with smaller particles.
     
  7. slanguage

    slanguage OD On Detailing

    I have gone back and forth over the years between mitts and sponges. I use both, just depends on my mood. I also have the pw/fc set-up, but Im not gonna lug it out everytime my truck needs a bath. I use mostly sponges now, but occasionally I do use a mitt.

    educated users, with the right wash media, can wash with a sponge and be fine.
     
  8. slanguage

    slanguage OD On Detailing

    oh, and ONR is really good at trapping dirt. I get a nice black ring in my bucket i have to scrub out when I use it. excellent product, especially in winter months!
     
  9. Hum-Benz

    Hum-Benz Wax on..Wax off

    I personally use a sponge. Why? Because i like to...lol. I have used both and one isn't better than the other as far as preventing marring. I don't even use my pw. Just like Slanguage, I'm not going to lug out my pw every time my cars need cleaned. I don't use the "two bucket method" either unless you want to count the one I use for the car and the one i use for my wheels. I believe that proper rinsing and washing will limit any type of marring. I welcome anyone to put my car under lights and find any marring.
    On that note...I need to remember to tell my neighbor that it probably isn't the best idea to use COMET Cleanser to clean the rims and tires and then proceed to wash the car with the same sponge on his Benz.
     
  10. agpatel

    agpatel OD On Detailing

    I use one bucket as well, use my foam gun to foam up the car, spray off with a jet stream and then wash with a Griots Garage MF washing pad or Uber Sponge. I use which ever I feel like using or what is closer to my hands when I am about to wash. One thing about the two bucket that always got me is that after you rinse the pad and put it in the wash solution you are diluting the washing solution a little bit every time, idk it may just be me but I also dont lk carrying around two buckets and dont wanna spend the money on a dolly.
     
  11. froboy272

    froboy272 Obsessive Detailer

    wow. :shakehead: thats scary.
     
  12. Got Wax

    Got Wax Banned

    I use a couple different processes, depending on if it is mobile or in our shop. In the shop, I use CSR and a foam gun. On the road, both our trailer and Sprinter have PW and foam lance. In either case, foaming is part of my process. Follow up with two bucket wash and I am pretty confident that we are not going to induce any marring.


    Andy
     
  13. junebug

    junebug Jedi Nuba

    I tried several things to wash with then I got turned on to the grout sponge on Autopia, BINGO! Cheap as hell and works great. As long as you rinse the car down good first (I'm getting another PW soon) and use a decent car wash like DG, you'll be good to go. I use 1 bucket - 3 gallon one with a grit guard. Now - tires and wheels have their own bucket with a wider top so the wheel brush fits better.
     
  14. Hum-Benz

    Hum-Benz Wax on..Wax off

    Yes, yes it is. What's even worse is that it's black.
     
  15. Bunky

    Bunky Guest

    Optimum used the word encapsulation but unless you use a power wash some dirt that does dissolve (emulsify) is going to be present. It seems like you have to count on the mitt dislodging it and then somehow it gets encapsulated / emulsified before it can swirl.

    Of course, given that some claim ONR swirls, 1 bucket wash swirls, etc. that there is a lot of variety in technique such as rinsing, etc.
     
  16. agpatel

    agpatel OD On Detailing

    What you are hoping, and theoretically, should happen is as the mitt/sponge is going over contamination it takes the contamination off the surface and the liquid goes around the particles and suspends it in liquid, or takes the contamination and and goes into the wash media were it gets surrounded by liquid. Now I say this should happen because if you press too hard and are moving the mitt really fast the liquid has not chance to go around the particles and thus you start getting swirls.

    Same reason you dont move a MF fast across a surface, the fiber particles do not have a change to take the contamination off the surface and have it go into the nap.

    To you and I this may seem like common sense, but to the average person they are going to want to was the car ASAP, so they will go fast as they can and with the more pressure because they think it will get everything off faster and they can be done sooner. This will cause marring and end results will be the ugly swirls.

    At the end of the day, and after a little experience, you figure out what is the best way to wash the car for your car and using what you have. Some people can do this with product X and method X' but this exact way to someone else will cause swirls and they need to use product Y and method Y'
     
  17. Bunky

    Bunky Guest

    I just like to understand the theory and the reality sorta like the joke about the difference between a physicist and the engineer (hint: the engineer gets the girl).

    By really figuring it out, then you really understand the cleaning process. My point was the wool mitt (sponge haters) clearly have a different view of the cleaning process otherwise we could agree. In principle, if a foam applicator with a little lubrication is safe on paint, then many sponges have to be as well in principle...now we just have to deal with that dirt on the paint.

    I am thinking about a certain poster in a car forum that equates sponges to witchcraft or socialism..cannot decide which.
     
  18. agpatel

    agpatel OD On Detailing

    I think trying to get wool mitt lovers, and the ones that say sponges are evil, to understand that sponges do not harm if used correctly like a wool mitt will not harm paint if you use it right is like trying to convince a domestic car fan to buy a import.

    Just in case anyone wants more info on how soap works,

    http://www.worldofmolecules.com/interactive_molecules/soap.htm
     

Share This Page