Diminishing vs. Non-Diminishing Polish

Discussion in 'Compounds, Polishes, Paint Cleaners, and Glazes' started by yukonon22, Mar 11, 2009.

  1. yukonon22

    yukonon22 Wax on..Wax off

    Can somebody explain the advantages and disadvantages between Diminishing & Non-Diminishing Polishes? My understanding is that Menzerna are diminishing polishes, am i correct? 1Z are non-diminishing?

    Also what is the advantage to finishing with a Porter Cable, if any, and what polish would i use to finish with a porter cable. From what i understand for a porter cable to polish effectively i would have to use a polish with non-diminishing abrasives?
     
  2. D&D Auto Detailing

    D&D Auto Detailing DB Forum Supporter

    Heres my understanding, someone correct me if Im wrong.

    You have to work diminishing abrasives down so they "fracture" and finish properly. Think of non diminishing abrasives as sandpaper. They cut the same amount the entire time you're polishing, they dont really break down.

    So diminishing abrasives may take longer to work and may need multiple applications. Non diminishing abrasives you just have to work them until the imperfections have been removed. So as long as the polish is still working, you keep buffing and buffing. You can also adjust the cutting ability of non diminishing abrasives based on the amount of pressure/ speed you use. So use pressure to remove the defects, then reduce pressure to finish with little to no marring. This also may mean something like M205, which is a finishing polish, may have the ability to remove moderate defects as well as finish like 106FF or another finishing polish. So instead of going with SIP then 106FF, you just use one or two applications of M205.

    On a side note, I will say I don't really feel there is a need to use the cascading technique (reducing rpm and speed) with diminishing abrasives. The abrasives are designed to diminish, they are doing to do that whether or not you cascade. However, with non diminishing abrasives it would be a great technique to get a non diminishing compound to finish down nicely.

    I think people use the PC to finish so they dont need to worry about leaving holograms in the paint.

    I also wouldnt be surprised if people start selling their Menzeran for 105 and 205.
     
  3. Asphalt Rocket

    Asphalt Rocket Nuba Guru

    Yes Menzerna is diminishing, Megs M105 and M205 are not. Yes, you use non-diminishing with your pc. I don't understand why some use the pc to finish.
     
  4. Legacy99

    Legacy99 Wax on..Wax off

    Rocket, the answer is simple, they don't have a rotary.
     
  5. J BELL

    J BELL Nuba Guru

    I have heard a lot, and myself, have had success with 105 on white polishing pad at speed 2 for gentle polishing....105 is really a jack of all trades, with a little experimenting i think it is one polish that could replace dozens in everyone's stash
     
  6. yukonon22

    yukonon22 Wax on..Wax off

    Thanks for the input
     
  7. milabfocker

    milabfocker Jedi Nuba

    I frequently correspond with a chemist who works for an organization which manufactures detailing products; he explained milled abrasives designed to diminish are generally sphere shaped and flatten (like a pancake) as they diminish. Obviously, the latest and greatest technology in milled abrasives, super-micro abrasives, do not diminish; these products tend to be pad dependent. Additionally, Meguiar's #95, #105, and #205 are not the only products which utilize this form of abrasive; System One's X3 polish is also said to share this same technology. Also, some persons finish with the PC rather than the rotary because it is less aggressive and will not impart holograms in the finish. There are many experienced detailers who finish with the PC when circumstances warrant its use (i.e., soft dark finish).
     
  8. D&D Auto Detailing

    D&D Auto Detailing DB Forum Supporter

    Light colors show holograms also though.
     
  9. Asphalt Rocket

    Asphalt Rocket Nuba Guru

    Why would you sell your Menzerna for M105 and M205?
     
  10. J BELL

    J BELL Nuba Guru

    I always thought Megs #95 were diminishing abrasives...i have always actually broken it down...
     
  11. milabfocker

    milabfocker Jedi Nuba

    I agree; any color will reveal holograms if significant buffing induced micro-marring is present. However, the color of a finish has the capacity to impact the extent to which micro-marring is visible. I am willing to bet you have reviewed write-ups where members had a difficult time photographing significant swirling or other defects on light colored vehicles; namely white and/or silver finishes. If it is difficult to detect serious defects on these colors; wouldn't conventional wisdom suggest it would be even more difficult to notice extremely superficial defects? Holograms imparted via an aggressive compound and pad combination will be discernible on any color finish; however, this is usually not the case with a relatively gentle polishing process. The PC is useful when even the faintest hologram will be detectable. In my experience, and in very limited circumstances, the rotary is unable to achieve a hologram free finish. I polished a jet black Victory motorcycle and had to revert to the PC when every attempt to finish with the rotary left faint holograms. I adjusted my technique as well as polish and pad combinations for several hours before hesitantly deciding to transition to the PC. From then on, it was smooth sailing.

    [​IMG]
     
  12. D&D Auto Detailing

    D&D Auto Detailing DB Forum Supporter

    I definitely agree imperfections are harder to see on lighter colors. I just don't feel lighter colors should necessary be treated differently. Not saying thats what you meant.
     
  13. milabfocker

    milabfocker Jedi Nuba

  14. milabfocker

    milabfocker Jedi Nuba

    Once again, I completely agree. However, there is no need to continue refinement if the paint appears to be perfect. If you consider the principles of paint correction, refinement is the key to obtaining a perfect finish. Most to least aggressive in terms of product, pad, and technique is necessary to reach the optimum result. I doubt you will disagree the PC, or any other dual action or random orbital polisher, delivers a gentler action in comparison to the rotary. Wouldn't it make sense to utilize this tool in conjunction with a finishing polish to reach the pinnacle of refinement? Typically, this degree of refinement is not necessary; however, it is when specific dynamics (i.e., low paint solidity, dark color) are present. This is why a test section is frequently recommended prior to correcting a finish; each is unique. I realize you are an educated detailer and hope I didn't offend you by re-establishing the fundamentals of paint correction, it was just necessary to explain my stance.
     
  15. Denzil

    Denzil Guest

    Interesting read. This has me rethinking my process, especially with the KB method floating around recently.
     
  16. J BELL

    J BELL Nuba Guru

    Thanks for that post, i was not aware that it was a hybrid of sorts...95 is a great compound in my opinion..but man i heat up paint fast with it! Like really hot....but it always gets overshadowed by M105..but great product nonetheless..
     
  17. yukonon22

    yukonon22 Wax on..Wax off

    Same. Im not completely sold with Menzerna. Is 205 strong enough to clean up swirls left by 105? can those two polishes alone work for a proper finish? Another line that interest me is 1Z? any input?
     
  18. Asphalt Rocket

    Asphalt Rocket Nuba Guru

    You can achieve a hologram free finish with a rotary, I have been doing this for years and so have several other people. As far as light colors go they should be treated no differently than a dark color and be hologram free when completed.
     
  19. togwt

    togwt Nuba Guru

     
  20. milabfocker

    milabfocker Jedi Nuba

    If you look five posts up, I have already indicated light colors should not be treated differently than dark colors; however, there is no reason to continue refinement if no micro-marring is visibly present and a high gloss is restored. In an earlier post, you stated you did not understand why some persons finish with a PC. I'm not sure if you were attempting to poise a rhetoric question; but, I was simply trying to shed light on the issue. Rotary operation and application is not overly difficult; possessing the tenacity and patience necessary to perfect a finish is primary. I am not the only person who feels an orbital or dual action polisher is necessary in limited circumstances.

    How to avoid swirls and holograms? - Car Care Forums: Meguiar's Online

    Can a Rotary Buffer like a Makita or DeWalt be as Idiot-proof as a PC? - Page 2 - Car Care Forums: Meguiar's Online
     

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