What does "Burning" the paint really mean?

Discussion in 'Compounds, Polishes, Paint Cleaners, and Glazes' started by Darkstar752, Dec 22, 2009.

  1. togwt

    togwt Nuba Guru

    I'm one of the younger ;) guys that work with 4-inch pads and a PC for paint correction as I've always found the PC under powered to drive a 6.5 - inch pad with sufficient applied pressure to remove surface scratches and not stall
     
  2. Junkman2008

    Junkman2008 Any Rag Vehicle Washer

    So let me see if I understand what is being stated for fact in this thread. Are there people here who actually believe that the PC is not powerful enough to be used with a 6.5" pad? Better yet, a 7" pad? Please, step up if you feel this way. I am dying to talk with you.
     
  3. christian900se

    christian900se Obsessive Detailer

    A 7" pad? The PC bogs down enough with a 6.5" pad that is anything softer than an orange or maybe white pad, a 7" pad is taking the PC beyond its intended pad size. Can you get away with working with those larger pads? Maybe, but it doesn't yield any advantage and is even a disadvantage because it is just taking away from the polishing action of the random orbital motion as the pad size increases.
     
  4. Junkman2008

    Junkman2008 Any Rag Vehicle Washer

    That's odd, because in all my videos and demos I do in front of hundreds of people everyday at car shows, I use a 7,5" Adam's pad. They see me correcting paint with that combo right before their eyes. I think the real issue here is technique. If you know how to use that size pad with the PC, you will have success. THAT, my videos more than prove. There's nothing wrong with using a smaller pad but as I have shown in a bunch of videos, It can not only be done but can also be done effectively.
     
  5. Darkstar752

    Darkstar752 Horizon Detailing

    Thanks Junkman, got any tips for handling a 7.5 vs a 5.5? I.E. What techniques would be used with a 7 that would not normally be used with a 5.5?

    Personally, I feel like a 7" pad can be used to quickly correct a car with lighter defects, and a 5.5" can be used to knock back the heavier defects faster. I usually use a rotary though, so I was just wondering.
     
  6. Asphalt Rocket

    Asphalt Rocket Nuba Guru

    Do you do an IPA wipedown after every polishing step when using the pc.
     
  7. christian900se

    christian900se Obsessive Detailer

    Just because you can do something doesn't mean it is the best path forward. I have used a PC for years with all sorts of pads and know what it is capable of, however there is a threshold for what is the most effective pad size and it is generally agreed that is not any larger than 6.5". If it works for you, no one is telling you otherwise.

    A side note: you seem to like to preach about detailing like your method is the final word. Your videos are entertaining and informative, but some things are misleading. For instance: you are taking a thin layer of paint off of a car anytime you use an abrasive polish or pad, and you can make a car worse with inappropriate techniques and/or products.
     
  8. togwt

    togwt Nuba Guru

    Absolutely correct

    Heat from Kinetic (or dynamic) Friction

    [ : when contacting surfaces move relative to each other, the friction between the two surfaces converts kinetic energy into thermal energy, or heat]

    Kinetic friction induced heat is an often misunderstood concept of polishing / compounding; abrasives require friction to breakdown, not heat; heat is just a resultant of friction between two surfaces. Kinetic friction is required to ‘level’ paint, which is simply the removal of paint to the lowest point of the paint defect. A finishing pad will not provide as much friction as a cutting foam pad, although they will both produce friction induced heat, whereas a wool pad, due to their composition, creates less friction induced heat but more kinetic friction (due to its fibrous structure) than most foam pads.

    Polishing a paint surfaces transfer’s kinetic friction induced heat to the paint surface, thermoplastic polymers have both tensile strength (a linear stress-strain relationship) and elongation (elasticity) which allow the surface to flex, expand and contract in accordance to surrounding temperatures, solvents, resins and other ingredients in polishes will expand causing the paint film surface to expand (for a tech explanation see Ideal Gas Laws, Boyle et al)

    As the metal substrate expands the paint moves with it, due to its elasticity, thereby becoming elongated (thinner) this is part of the cause of friction induced ‘burn’, you’re applying pressure and an abrasive to a less dense (‘thinner’) paint surface. Plastic has a much lower rate of thermal conductivity than metal, so it absorbs heats at a far greater rate.

    Kinetic Friction induced heat can cause a rapid temperature rise; (i.e. initial surface temp 80.oF, friction heat attained with the polisher stationary and a cutting foam pad at 1,100 RPM for approx. ten seconds the friction induced heat attained would be around 104.oF) the paint temperature can be checked by utilizing an instant read-out infra-red ‘gun type’ digital thermometer, paint surface ‘spot’ temperature should be limited to 110.oF <

    In accordance with the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) a localized (spot) temperature of 115.oF will cause the urethane clear coat to soften and the foam pad will cause scratching that is forced deep into the clear coat.

    An extract from one of a series of unbiased Detailing Technical Papers, a library of educational materials that has become the #1 reference for car care on the Internet

    I more than appreciate these articles are very technical in content and therefore will not appeal to every detailers level of knowledge or experience. But chances are you'll learn something about detailing if you read any of these.

    © TOGWT ™ Ltd Copyright 2002-2010, all rights reserved
     
  9. Junkman2008

    Junkman2008 Any Rag Vehicle Washer

    The only thing that I can say about those two pad sizes is that the smaller pad works best when dealing with a lot of curves (as in hood scoops, wicked angles, etc...), when using the PC. With a rotary or forced rotation type machine, curves are not an issue but tight areas will benefit from the smaller pad sizes.

    I wipe down my polishing passes with detail spray before moving to the next polish or wax.

    No one said it was the best path forward, but you said it couldn't be done and was stupid to do so. I just proved you wrong. As for my "preaching", you are reading into my post the wrong way, and you have definitely NOT read enough of my post. Adam and I do things two different ways, but always end up at the same shine. There are thousands of guys using a bunch of different products that end up at the same shine. I have never said what I use is better than anything other than OTC junk. I use a myriad of products for a myriad of problems so "my way" may differ depending on what I'm using.

    I am the last person to call myself an expert because I do this for fun, not money. It doesn't pay remotely close to what I get paid to do for a living. So "my way" is just another poor slob's way of doing it in his lowly ol' garage. It just so happens that my way is one of the many ways that work.

    Don't take it so personal.

    I love this quote. First off, you are NOT removing any paint unless your car has no clear coat on it in the first place. What you are removing is clear coat. As if you needed to inform me of that, I make that clear in all my videos on paint correction. Secondly, show me my misleading ways in my videos. I have yet to have anyone contact me and say that they damaged their car following my instructions. I have taught college courses and was taught how to teach by the U.S. Marines. If there is anything that I can do, it is get my point or an idea across.

    You really need to give the novice community some credit for being able to follow directions. With some of the comments I have seen about novices here, you would think that they are complete idiots. A novice with no instructions to follow may do some crazy things, but with the proper counseling, they can do this stuff with relative ease given the correct products and tools. After all, although they may not be professional detailers, some of them are lawyers, doctors, policemen and upper management, just to name a few. They didn't get where they are in life being a bunch of rocks, as I have seen them being eluded to be.

    Detailing is not rocket science. I'm a testament to that. :thumb:
     
  10. christian900se

    christian900se Obsessive Detailer

    You are right, I did read to much into your posts and videos. I need to be less defensive, some other forums I am on are like the wild west in comparison so sometimes I fall into that mentality online. I forgot what your target audience is, I just saw some places that I felt could be interpreted in different ways as seen from the perspective of a beginner or novice. I realize your intentions in those videos, and believe me I have watched all of the ones on your youtube account.

    We might have to agree to disagree on the clear coat issue; it is a part of the paint system, and you still remove a fine layer. It serves to protect the base coat on clearcoated cars, but I know you know this. Once it is gone, its gone; this is my reasoning behind that thought.
     
  11. togwt

    togwt Nuba Guru

    [We might have to agree to disagree on the clear coat issue; it is a part of the paint system, and you still remove a fine layer. It serves to protect the base coat on clearcoated cars, but I know you know this. Once it is gone, its gone; this is my reasoning behind that thought.]

    Clear Coat Thickness

    Modern clear coat paint finishes are so good today that they lull people into thinking that vehicle paint has protection and shine when in reality there is not really much there, other than the clear coat that has a thickness of 1.5 – 2.0 Mils. 1 mil = 0 .001", 1000th of an inch or 25.4 Microns. The average human hair is 4 Mils, or 101.6 microns thick. As a point of reference a sheet of copy paper is 3.5Mil (89 µ)

    Most vehicle paint film systems (127 - 178 µ) comprise a Primer coat of 2Mils (50 µ) a Colour coat of 1-2Mils (25 -50 µ) and Clear coat (paint that has no pigmentation (colour) in it) 2-3Mils (50 - 75 µ) Removing more that 0.5 mil (12µ) of clear coat will cause premature paint film failure as UV protection percolates to the top of the clear coat. A surface scratch that will `catch' your fingernail is approximately 0.04 Mil (1.0 µ) deep will usually require wet sanding and the clear coat refinishing

    Paint Removed by Polishing

    Using a medium abrasive polish and a rotary polisher will remove approximately 0. 1 Mil (3µ) from the paint surface (typically 4 passes at 1500-1800 RPM) but there are many variables such as polish/compound and speed / pressure used that may affect the paint removed)

    There comes a point when you must judge wither removing a scratch will compromise the clear coat and if so you’ll have to ‘live’ with the imperfection. If you have reservations about the amount of paint surface removed or the amount of paint coating remaining the use of a paint thickness gauge (PTG) is arbitrary
     
  12. 07 z-oh-6

    07 z-oh-6 Any Rag Vehicle Washer

    I'm sure you're aware, but a detail spray will not reveal the true result after polishing like IPA does. Just some food for thought. :)
     
  13. Asphalt Rocket

    Asphalt Rocket Nuba Guru

    I wipe down my polishing passes with detail spray before moving to the next polish or wax.


    I guess that sums that up, detail sprays will not remove the oils from polish. :crasy:
     
  14. agpatel

    agpatel OD On Detailing

    IPA, solvent based cleaner, or Menz Top Inspection will all reveal true correction.

    I do use Megs Final Inspection to clean polishing dust, splatter, and hard to get off residue as it has some good lubrication and does not have any gloss agents, but it will not remove oils.

    I tried to burn through clear on my junk trunk panel, using a LC white pad, i had to push down hella hard, speed 3 on a flex and tilting it a good amount to get through the clear.
     
  15. Dream Machines

    Dream Machines Jedi Nuba

    Prepsol or silicone remover is my choice for checking the finish after each abrasive step
     
  16. Junkman2008

    Junkman2008 Any Rag Vehicle Washer

    Well, I agree with what you just posted here 100% so I'm not sure where there is a disagreement. However, I will say that there is nothing wrong with having a difference in opinion. We all learn from one another and personally, I never want to know everything there is to know about detailing cars. Talk about a "get laid" killer, if the women I hang out with started talking detailing to me, I'd probably put them out of the car!

    ... and that is with a polisher that has forced rotation! The PC with its clutched action would take quite a while to do this.

    Let me say this folks. We can debate until the cows come home. The difference is, I do this for fun and there are maybe those of you who do this for a living. Ninety-nine percent of the folks that I deal with are like me. We are not concerned so much with the "laws of physics" when detailing but are more concerned with positive results. Those results I get there is no one on the planet who can deny that. My many pictures and videos prove that with up an up close and personal inspection of my results. There is no way on earth that I will state that my way is the only way, nor will I say that my way is an absolute perfect way. What I will say is that my results are positive, and that's what other novice detailers are looking for while having fun when doing it.

    Using the products and equipment that I use in my videos, it would take an colossal effort to burn through the clear coat unless your clear coat was pretty much gone to start with. Even then, it would still be a workout. For me, this stuff is about fun and I would rather drive my car than spend the summer rubbing on it.


    111,000 miles and 9 years old. She still sparkles like new.

    [​IMG]
     
  17. togwt

    togwt Nuba Guru

    [We are not concerned so much with the "laws of physics" when detailing but are more concerned with positive results. ]

    Friction causes heat, enough heat will cause paint to (friction) burn. You can deny the laws of physics all you want but they will not change and telling someone who states those laws that they are mistaken is pointless.
     
  18. Junkman2008

    Junkman2008 Any Rag Vehicle Washer

    Okay Einstein, how much heat are you going to generate with the PC-7424? Also show in print where I stated that heat doesn't cause paint burn. Reading is fundamental. I suggest you apply that to the whole thread.
     
  19. togwt

    togwt Nuba Guru

    Personal attacks and cheap shots at name calling have no place in any detailing forum. I suggest you show other forum contributors some respect.

    I for one will not share information with anyone, vendor rep or anyone else who chooses to take well meant information and turn them into something personal.
     
  20. Junkman2008

    Junkman2008 Any Rag Vehicle Washer

    Thank you. I am done discussing this with you too.
     

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